Rolling road day 14th March 2009

[AP]

My delta dash results showed 300/310, the rollers on Saturday showed 280/260..
I trust the rollers myself after using them since day 1, hosting several RR events and seeing loads of cars mapped on them.
Ask GRD how well his cars produce figures on them, he is in the business where his customers would like the quoted figures for the work done.
As for quoting Bob, he has only ever used PE for his R&D.
These RR arguments have been going on for years..

[DukeBoy]

I my opinion if you want the pub talk figures, get it mapped on the rollers instead of the road

If you feel that it drives/pulls well does it really matter what the figures are???

[C. J.]

Originally Posted by Crowman

Whats the benifit on DCCD, i know sod all about them.

You can a just how much power you split from front to back
On the aftermarket control i have you can do 100% rear or front or anything inbetween if i have understood correct !

[Scott.T]

Just to put things straight,
There is nothing wrong with the results achieved for both Nige's and Worzels car on the rollers and no-one is at fault (mapper or RR operator).
For the boost they achieved at the top end of the rpm range, the power is about right.
My car was actually 0.1-0.2bar higher then their's hence I was marginally ahead on power.

Don't just look at the power figure plot, look at all the others that Charlies supplied, they all tell a story.....
Neither car made the boost on the rollers that they do on the road, regardless of gear.
If the car was hitting the top limit of the WGDC (Max Waste Gate Duty cycle) it wouldn't make much difference which gear it was in).
Normally a car will achieve slightly higher boost in the higher gears, hence more power. But the ECU in these cars has 2 WGDC maps to help maintain a more even boost per gear with a degree of self-learning. However, too much WGDC and you get boost spikes/oscillation in 5th/6th which can lead to lean mixture/detonation etc.....it's a fine balance.

Both cars hold 1.4bar out on the road so will be getting v.close to the expected figures of 340-350BHP for Worzel and 360-370BHP for Nige.

Retrospectivley looking a Nige's log we took when Road dyno'd he was hitting 35% WGDC for 1.45bar, Initial WGDC was 33, top limit was 38%.
On the rollers it may of been hitting 38% due to the different load effect of the rollers. It will not go beyond 38%, hence boost levels may not hit target.

All this is my take on the situation, and I am investigating further........

[Scooby Wez]

Originally Posted by DukeBoy

I my opinion if you want the pub talk figures, get it mapped on the rollers instead of the road

If you feel that it drives/pulls well does it really matter what the figures are???

As i have said i went to have a check up.From what my car has had done 260 was the rough guide Charlie also expected this when it came out @ 236bhp i was not unhappy.All the mod's i have done have made the car feel a whole lot better on the road.If i had come away with standard Subaru figures i would of been happy also as i think this would of been a good result as mine has 147k on it.When i set one of my bikes up on the Dyno i have always used for it it rode like s**t but was doing good bhp,i reset it back up for the road which made it feel great again but lost 7bhp on the dyno so i think a lot is swings and roundabouts.I am still talking about saturday and my brother is getting bored of the video

Originally Posted by SilverSurfer

Just to put things straight,
There is nothing wrong with the results achieved for both Nige's and Worzels car on the rollers and no-one is at fault (mapper or RR operator).
For the boost they achieved at the top end of the rpm range, the power is about right.
My car was actually 0.1-0.2bar higher then their's hence I was marginally ahead on power.

Don't just look at the power figure plot, look at all the others that Charlies supplied, they all tell a story.....
Neither car made the boost on the rollers that they do on the road, regardless of gear.
If the car was hitting the top limit of the WGDC (Max Waste Gate Duty cycle) it wouldn't make much difference which gear it was in).
Normally a car will achieve slightly higher boost in the higher gears, hence more power. But the ECU in these cars has 2 WGDC maps to help maintain a more even boost per gear with a degree of self-learning. However, too much WGDC and you get boost spikes/oscillation in 5th/6th which can lead to lean mixture/detonation etc.....it's a fine balance.

Both cars hold 1.4bar out on the road so will be getting v.close to the expected figures of 340-350BHP for Worzel and 360-370BHP for Nige.

Retrospectivley looking a Nige's log we took when Road dyno'd he was hitting 35% WGDC for 1.45bar, Initial WGDC was 33, top limit was 38%.
On the rollers it may of been hitting 38% due to the different load effect of the rollers. It will not go beyond 38%, hence boost levels may not hit target.

All this is my take on the situation, and I am investigating further........

Thanks Scott, that explains things beautifully.

I know the figures I got are not reflective of how the car feels. I know for a fact that the scoob feels so much more pokey than my completely unmolested M3, which should be 343BHP & 360nm. I drive the M3 every day and the scoob wets all over it. I know that the M3 is heavier, but even so the difference is massive. My scoob was beating M3's on the old map let alone this new one. (tore one to shreds last year on the East Peckham by pass, much to the other guys disgust )

As said in a couple of posts in this thread, it's how it feels. The good old "Bum in seat" dyno doesn't usually get it wrong.

In fairness, anyone who saw Nige having a play with CJ on the M25 on the way to the meet, would say that there is never in a million years 80bhp difference between the two cars. Blast for blast (nothing silly for any watching fuzz ) was completely even.

I have no doubts about Chris's figures, his car was mapped on those rollers so it should be showing good returns on them. I just know that Niges and my own just don't seem right at all.

As AP said above, the debates will always happen. And will no doubt rumble on. But nothing takes away from the fact we had a great day out. We got to watch Rob donut around the car park, Martyn wore a pigs head and Chocks Chockington had his first tentative try at "formation Parking"! Happy days.

Group hug anyone?

[Scooby Wez]

Originally Posted by worzel

As AP said above, the debates will always happen. And will no doubt rumble on. But nothing takes away from the fact we had a great day out. We got to watch Rob donut around the car park, Martyn wore a pigs head and Chocks Chockington had his first tentative try at "formation Parking"! Happy days.

Group hug anyone?

Yep the formation parking was fun my first time also and it was a great day out.As for donuts my old Capri would have shown that m3 how to do it properly Bodie and Doyle style

I reckon if CJ's scoob wasn't there, he might have done a few more!

All this talk of figures and the like! Piffle and balderdash what what!

The fact it was run by a man with a BMW makes me think that this is just another of the fiendish Huns plots, to undermine our good old boys morale.

I think we have lost a bit of the blitz spirit down to this fiendish and dare I say scurrelous and underhand double agents tactics. I've a good mind to scurry round to the fellow and biff him on the nose what what! But I would not bring my name or that of the TMT into question, just to slake this Huns thirst for angst among fellow SES Members.

For Queen and St George! Hurrah! What what!!

[SUBARMAN]

Hi Chocks.

Now you can see why Ken Cobalt is needed as "secret spy" and has no time for the Squadron!!

Indeed I can SIR!

Ken Cobalts secret and furtive methods are obviously needed out there in this big bad Hun filled world what what.

Ken, where ever you are, be careful out there SIR! I fear that the hun fiends have something very underhand afoot. May your aim be sure if required and may you ginger beer stay frothy always.

Hurrah for Ken! HURRAH!!! What what.

[simonairheadz]

gotta say ive been on track many times and had my ass whupped by a well set up golf at brands!also giving it to a 430 at silverstone!
the bhp debate becomes worthless in the end!
how fast your car goes depends on how hard you push that foot!
you can chase your tail with cars and money,at the end of the day its how it feels and drives!
done 2 rolling roads in my life,found them both boring lol,but i do love to sit back and watch the debates lol!

Totally!

Originally Posted by AP

I think you will find your figures just about spot on, Charlie is one of the most qualified RR operators in the business, he has loads of independent testers results in his portfolio..
If you are after pub figures take it to PE, you will come away happy

I have no idea of R&R and im sure Charlie knows his job.My car did go to PE 3years ago & made 278bhp. I was dissapointed then as my car is a T.S.L 333. I dont understand why my car only made 320bhp on Surrey R&R and yes im disapointed. However if my car can sit with Scotts proven 335bhp on the R&R & my car two up + being a heavy new age ! why is that he should of left me if i was only 320bhp{straight line} C.J we had a little play on the way there in a straight line im sure you will agree there was hardly 80bhp difference. What im trying to say is I DONT GET IT thats all. If my car feels quick on the road why didnt it show that on the R&R? C.j these R&R are your bag please dont stop just beacause a few of us cant get our head around these figures. I am still learning as far as this mapping & chipping thing goes and would at some point like to go back to Surrey R&R .

Originally Posted by simonairheadz

gotta say ive been on track many times and had my ass whupped by a well set up golf at brands!also giving it to a 430 at silverstone!
the bhp debate becomes worthless in the end!
how fast your car goes depends on how hard you push that foot!
you can chase your tail with cars and money,at the end of the day its how it feels and drives!
done 2 rolling roads in my life,found them both boring lol,but i do love to sit back and watch the debates lol!

I agree mate i had my arse kicked by a 1968 mini van at the ring + allot of other stuff that should not have passed a Scoob.

[C. J.]

Had a call from charlie regarding dohuts !

Do it again and we are not welcome back .

[BIG"E"]

Originally Posted by Nige

I agree mate i had my arse kicked by a 1968 mini van at the ring + allot of other stuff that should not have passed a Scoob.

Your keeping quite about the Reliant Robin then Nige.

[img]http://i516.photobucket.com/albums/u321/Bikebloke0/subaru030.jpg[/img] [img]http://i516.photobucket.com/albums/u321/Bikebloke0/subaru031.jpg[/img] Ha! Ha!

[Scooby Si]

Originally Posted by C. J.

Had a call from charlie regarding dohuts !

Do it again and we are not welcome back .

I was waiting for that... Charlie has had a lot of grief from his landlords over similar things in the past!!

[simonairheadz]

ok ok so who was doing the spins?

It might have been Rob

It was only one in fairness, a bloody good one though!

Originally Posted by BIG E

Your keeping quite about the Reliant Robin then Nige.

Shhh that was a quick three wheeler

[Scooby Wez]

Originally Posted by Nige

Shhh that was a quick three wheeler

Did not handle well but v.quick
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/RdoH4DwDb8I/AAAAAAAADYQ/uXpZhHGw3zg/s1600/Carscoop_whattadrag_2.jpg[/img]

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by C. J.

Had a call from charlie regarding dohuts !

Do it again and we are not welcome back .

Wasn't one of ours...well it wasn't a Subaru...must of been one of those 2WD hangers on

[RobEvo5]

Originally Posted by SilverSurfer

Wasn't one of ours...well it wasn't a Subaru...must of been one of those 2WD hangers on

About time you learnt to drive a proper drivers car aint it Scott

Donut what donut that was a just a slight wheel spin infaction and delibrately so. In the right place, right time I feel a proper 3x360 coming.

All this talk of power and dyno results always makes me laugh. My car dynoed at just 276BHP, 226bhp at wheels - or 185bhp per tonne if you prefer which is what I like to measure things in these days. (Dynoed at superchips at 311bhp). And in truth through the rear wheels its as much power as you could ever need on UK roads. Driven in anger, my bottle will give way long before the cars performance would give up.

On the way home scott, I and a TVR cebera had a little play to a *** figured number and all 3 were fairly evenly matched and could hardly say one was significantly pulling on the other. You need serious BHP jumps to make another high powered car make it look like its standing still. 50-100bhp between cars factoring weight, drive train losses and gearing its all down to how much the driver has the right gear at the right time and how he pushes it to the red line.

Down a 'A' road my M3 would cover ground very quickly as well, but you would have to work much, much harder at it, and really use the throttle (rather than let a turbo pull you), gears, power band, and think about how fast you enter a corner and exit a corner, but as a result the driver enjoyment is that much more for me. But against that you don't get the kick in the back you get with a scoob so horses for courses.

But my main point is - Quick is often quick enough, and chasing BHP is nothing more than a v.expensive hobby for pub talk, and when you do get a BHP hike, within a week you get used to it. But in the meantime its just cost you £0000's, hours working on the car, and mullered knuckles.

Oh the things we petrol heads do with our hard earned and time !

[SUBARMAN]

That's a great summary Rob!!

[simonairheadz]

here here,i know loads of people on my other site running up to 1200 bhp in street cars,most of them only ever pootle along,mostly frightened of them cutting loose!or blowing up!
i thought about it................................................ .and have now decided not too.
my 270 bhp is plenty(as you say,driven in anger its very fast)
holidays,family entertainment take preference in money terms for me lol.
but as i said watching grown ups debate bhp,is like watching kids pee up a wall lol,who can go the highest!(but that never means he has the biggest ****)amen

i just sit quietly in the pub, when the bhp conversations start,i nick off and play pool lol

Mmmmm M3 drivers car yes they are and very nice to. Now put that same driver in to a Scoob with the same power. At the end of the A or B road who would be first? Hard question to answer that one both good cars. Bring on the RING. Pleny of M3's there to play with. The later M3's are fantastic i really wanted Worzel to bring his they look at there best when sideways.

[RobEvo5]

Have owned many a scoob and several M3's as most know. They are like chalk and cheese, but down the same 'A' road I would admit, the scoob would have it, but that's because of my lack of driver skill and bottle not the car. But in the right hands It would be a very close race IMO. But hyperthetically speaking I would have got a much greater adrenalin rush from the M3, because I would feel like I had been driving right on the limit of traction/handling and probably some sideways action along the way. Where as the scoob would do it with much more ease.!

Interestingly I firmly believe in the same hypotetical race, a non modded UK scoob with just 225bhp and its tiny TD04, would be just as quick point to point as a laggy higher powered scoob down a twisty 'A' road. The spool on a standard TD04 UK scoob is such a joy.!

I could be proved wrong but the ring is a track that really lends itself to cars that can really punch it above 100mph. Its a very,very fast track and the M3's come into there own at silly speeds. My car is delimited and has run 165mph on a superchips dyno, and a delimited E46 M3 can push 180MPH as proved by a mate of mine down an airstrip.

Unfortunately I can't make the ring as I'm off to le-man around that time. But my advice would be careful how you go, I'm sure you have all seen the you tube footage and I have done many a lap on the Xbox. Its a very,very fast track with little run off and not much kitty litter. If you slide it, you will crash and you will likely write off your car and possibly yourself. -

[RobEvo5]

Worzel you need to punish that M3 of yours a bit more and don't get fooled by the perception of speed/power that torque can give . Keep the revs above 5k on a E46 and keep it in the right gear and they are phenominal IMO. My E36 M3 is quick but a E46 M3 is defo quicker, and has far more driver aids to keep you on the straight and narrow.

I have no traction control, stability control or antiskid. Just good old ABS and thats it.!

[SUBARMAN]

Interesting point about the TD04! The biggest joy after my recent remap was that the boost now comes in at just above 3k rather than at 3.4k. May not seem like much but reminds me much more of my old TD04. The rest of the power improvement is above 5k and I am going way too fast by then to have the opportunity to enjoy it every day.

[RobEvo5]

Originally Posted by SUBARMAN

Interesting point about the TD04! The biggest joy after my recent remap was that the boost now comes in at just above 3k rather than at 3.4k. May not seem like much but reminds me much more of my old TD04. The rest of the power improvement is above 5k and I am going way too fast by then to have the opportunity to enjoy it every day.

Cosworth realised this along time ago, when they released the escort cosworth with 2 turbo variants and the 'Upgrade' variant at the time had a smaller turbo to help spool and road driving drivability. Scott being a complete ex-nutter RS fan in his day probably has an artical about it somewhere.

Even Audi and BMW seem to be spending massive amounts on development to avoid the dreaded lag and opting largely for cubic capacity. And even the 335 BMW has a twin turbo set up to keep it spooling very low in the rev range.

For me, the best scoob or any turbo car for that matter I have ever had or likely to have in terms of real world driver fun and power was my classic with a 2.5ltr and 20g turbo, with top mount, running circa 380/380. It had a great balance of power, torque, agility, & turbo spool. Most of us private punters plowing loads of dosh into our modded scoobs realised this along time ago. And subaru finally followed suit with the hawkeye 2.5STI. Today you can go buy a Hawkeye STI for circa 12K, remap it to 380/380 and job done, and a very nice car taboo.

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by RobEvo5

Today you can go buy a Hawkeye STI for circa 12K, remap it to 380/380 and job done, and a very nice car taboo.

Well go on then..the beemer must of run out of fuel by now.....time for a change then.

[SUBARMAN]

Excellent!!!!

[RobEvo5]

Tempting but I currenty have my eyes set on a Honda S2000 or a more extreme S2 elise with turbo technics conversion, or a E46 M3. But who knows.... The M3 is doing its job very nicely at the moment, and I'm only really looking to change for the sake of change again.

Which reminds me I must think about another advert in here's classified for a nice M3 cab.

[SUBARMAN]

How many eyes have you got Rob - that's three cars at once!!! Buy in bulk or "a job lot"?

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by RobEvo5

Tempting but I currenty have my eyes set on a Honda S2000 or a more extreme S2 elise with turbo technics conversion, or a E46 M3. But who knows.... The M3 is doing its job very nicely at the moment, and I'm only really looking to change for the sake of change again.

Which reminds me I must think about another advert in here's classified for a nice M3 cab.

Get yourself a real car instead of WAG's wheels....