P1 Stalling
 

My P1 stalls when you stop quickly.
Its ok if you come to a steady stop although the revs drop to about 200rpm then back up to normal.

What do you reckon.

MAF or ISCV.
I'd go with MAF as it's cheapest at about £80 and the most damaging to the engine if faulty.
ISCV are about £300, or about £50 from a scooby breakers.
Done both on my classic over the years.

Air flow meter? My year 2000 did that and it was a broken maf?

Cheers guys. Was thinking MAF only its not very old at all.
Good thing is I was given brand new boxed one with car.
Will try it .
What is it with these bloody MAFS

Is the ISVC the idle control valve

Are you using the clutch pedal :doubleup:

If the maf doesn't work I've still got an idle control valve from the car if you want to try it?

ICV mate, mine did the same thing. Be warned though there is a rubber gasket under the icv, buy a new one before removing it because if it comes out you will never get the bloody thing back in!

:lol::lol::lol: My thoughts exactley!

blast both the ICV internally and MAF with carb cleaner, My 05 wagon used to hunt and run lumpy, the MAF was filthly so i cleaned both and all was returned to normal service.

Big Tel, is that the pedal on the left :-)

Greig
Thanks mate, I will give you a shout if it's not MAF. Top man

Guy, yes mate , I did one on my classic, I know exactly what you mean.

Cheers all, much apreciated

There isn't on the Phase 2 Classic engine IIRC.
It just plugs into the side of the throttle housing.
Don't touch the plunger or try and clean it though as it has a habit of winding right out and dismantling itself.

Rich
I'm going try new MAF first, as I have one. Then order rubber gasket , give valve a good clean .
See how I get on.

Just a thought,possible fuel issue, rust in tank partial blockage of in line filter.

Scott
Now I think about it, yes your right.
On my classic, it's on the rear right side of the inlet manifold, we're as on my P1 it's on side of throttle body.

So, is it cleanable on phase 2 inlet ?

Greig, is yours off phase 2

Cheers

Oi do one Grandpa

No, that's how I found out they fall apart.
It's basically a small stepper motor that winds the plunger in and out allowing air to bypass the main throttle butterfly.

Oh right.
Steppers normally very reliable.
Any idea what fails on them?
300 quid is a rip off for a stepper motor

MAF as said, or does it have a dump to atsmosphere dump valve? probably open on idle.

Never had a problem cleaning stepper motor.. just make a rough note of location of plunger, clean and replace in similar place.. ecu relocates it (original) if on an after market ecu like apexi it wont know the position and will just wind it out and out if you reset it at a different location to it was (further out).
The do get gunged up.

Simon

Ah bugger, sorry Crowman

I loaned him my standard recirc one and it made no difference.

Simon, as Rich said I borrowed his original dump valve as that's 1st thing I thought of, as had prob on my classic with aftermarket dump valve.

Thanks all for input

I will be in touch soon Simon, as full 3 inch RCM system going on soon and will require your services :-)

No worries Guy

Update
I have fitted new MAF , no change.
Removed and cleaned idle control valve , was very mucky and sticky

Not stalling now, but only just

http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/o...h_04b2b04f.jpg

Doesn't a Proper P1 ;) have a big rev counter in the middle ??
Idle level looks about right, the Hawk idles lower then my old Classic, but cold idle is alot faster which is annoying for the neighbours ;).

Funny you should mention that as we spoke about that when mart popped over. :?

Idle looks right but the return to idle doesnt.

Could well be the stepper motor still, worth trying another.

Have seen a few 99/00 cars now with issues on standard ecu and on replacing ecu with after market can map around it. Thats not to suggest you should do this, but that there is nothing major at fault.

Have to you reset the ecu since the clean?

Simon

It is that, especially with a decat:wife:

I could have lowered it had I know it was a pain when I saw you last.

Scott
My car Is the prototype, and still has a type r instrument cluster, as well as IC spray which P1 doesn't have.
In mechanical terms it's a type r with P1 running gear , better brakes and the above

Simon
I have not reset ECU , is it same as ver 2 to reset

Thanks

Yes it is same to reset.

Cheers mate

No worries mate, I doesnt sit still for long!

I'm 99% sure my one is a phase 2 inlet, I'll check at the weekend if it is your more than welcome to pop over and pick it up to see if it works

Greig your a star if it is, cheers mate

no problem

Update
Greig very kindly gave me an icv to try, so I fitted it and as suggested by JGM I've reset the ECU
Still the same:-(
So I'm going to fit the decat and get it booked in with Simon, and go from there.

Vids from today

http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/o...h_1dfbca8c.jpg

http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/o...h_958cf590.jpg

That is strange. As you say though, once on the rollers, it will hopefully become obvious.

It doesnt stall now, but as you can see and hear it virtually stalls.
The idle control valve is 2nd hand, so cant be 100% its ok, but to have exact same symptons, im guessing its something else.

It has been mapped before and i have rr print outs, will be interesting to see what Simon finds

Am i right in saying you haven't tried a different MAF yet??? or would this fault not relate to the MAF?

Your more than welcome to take all three bits off mine at once to try ie, MAF, ICV and dump valve, next weekend though :-(

New MAF fitted mate. Might try you icv just to be sure , cheers mate

Is it defo a new MAF fella or are you just going on some one's say so from when you bought it? Id try my ICV fella, got nothing to lose.

100% new MAF mate

It won't be anything to do with the map unless it's been mapped for different injectors and it's running incorrect at idle.
If it has just had an ecutek tweak I doubt they would of touched anything idle related or idle control related. ECUTEK may of been able to adjust idle but I'm not sure the ECUTEK software has the ability to change idle control parameters.

You can knock the idle up with ecuexplorer http://code.google.com/p/ecuexplorer/downloads/list, but you will need an OBD cable to do it and it will reset if you reset the ECU.

Unplug the ICV and seE what happens... I left mine unplugged on my RA when it played up

Have you checked the DV return hose (where the recirc normally connects) both ends to ensure sealed and the also the hoses on the underside of the intercooler.

Also check the ally mounting where the intercoller hoses mount/connect to the underside of the intercooler and the intake hose to the turbo where it conects to the turbo. the hard plastic pipe is rubbersied at the end it connect to the turbo and can split or get pinched by the jubilee clip.

If it were you MAF surely you would also notice a difference when on power ?

I've had two MAF failures but did not experience engine stopping when braking hard.

It started to run rough and became progressively worse over time.

Cheers guys
I think i will take the IC off tomoz and check out all pipes etc.
I was convinced it would be dump valve as its exactly what my classic did when it had top mount IC and I fitted a bailey dump valve.
But I have tried majorscoobs one.

Mine gave a couple of hick-ups when pulling to a stop then later inthe week stalledon me. New MAF and never done it again.

Worryingly, the difference in power is that they can give you more, as they tend to fail lean and cause detonation. Which makes them dangerous in this condition.

on the first video you can see the dumpvalve is still open?

Simon I will take a look again today.
I was sure it opens as you rev and then slams shut again.

I could see it move when you rev and cover the hole and then open when you lift off and stay open?

Thanks Simon. I will check .
Just can't work out why when I fitted majorscooby's standard one , it didn't seem to make a difference.
Is it possible a leak on the IC pipe work could cause the dump valve to do what it's doing.

Many thanks for super quick reply

Its possible yes.

If you wrap your fingers around the dump valve you can block it and you should be able to feel when it is open. Idle should improve when blocked even if not fully.

Did you fit the return to inlet pipe with the oe dump valve?

When I fitted the OE dump valve I removed the forge bung and refitted the pipe to the dump valve.

Right time to get outside and take a look
Watch this space

So in theory the oe one should have fixed it if it was the forge but it looks like it is to me the issue.

Zooming in on the video, I agree with Simon.
The DV almost seems to be working in reverse.

When at idle and when you open the throttle it should seal, when you come off the throttle it should open.
This will occur all the time there is a differential pressure/vacum between the engine side and the intercooler side i.e when on boost/driving and the throttle is open the pressure in the intercooler is the same as the pressure on the engine side therefore the DV is closed.
As soon as you close the throttle the pressure on the intercooler side remains due to the turbo still spinning and the pressure backing up against the closed throttle.
On the engine side as no turbo pressure can get through the closed thottle it goes into vacum.
Due to this pressure difference the dumpvalve opens, venting the excess pressure either back to the intake or to atmosphere (depending on valve).

The DV is mounted such that one side (where it bolts to the intercooler) is being moved by turbo pressure and the other side, the vacum hose uses engine pressure. All the time they are near equal in presssure there should be no movement of the DV.

The vacum hose should be connected to one of the 3 nipples on the middle of the intake manifold. make sure this is in the right place and has no weird hose joiners in it that could be on-way valves (thats the only thing I canthick of at the mo').

Have you tries running it without the dumpvalve.
knock up an ally plate and mount it to the DV mounting. i've got one kickingabout but quicker for you to knock something up rather then come get it.
You can use the DV to hold it in place. Then blank off the vacum hose normally conected to it.

Remove dv.

Compress piston with finger, block the vac pipe connection with another finger.
Release the piston, if the piston moves back to closed position the diaphram is fubar.

Forge dv are not good, their actuators are v good, dunno why.

Simon

Update guys
I have been over majorscoobs so thought I would try my dump valve on his, and it's perfectly ok.

Put it back on mine and out of curiosity pulled the small vacuum hose off and stuck my finger over it.
Problem solved , car runs perfect.
Dump valve obviously stays in one position .

Any ideas chaps

Have you checked the diaphram?

I still think its the forge dv

Will check it Simon.
Only reason I havnt is because it's perfect on Majors car

Different car though.

The forge ones fail regular.

Have you tried the dv off majors car on yours?

Hi Simon, yes tried majors standard DV and was no better.

How comes when I take vacuum pipe off the dump valve the car is spot on, is it because the dump valve then stays shut .

Yes.

If it had a stronger spring it would hold shut

When I had a forge dump valve I rang them up and they sent me a free service kit with new spring for free . :)

Bloomin thing , I'm sure you guys are right. It's just thrown me because of majors standard didn't cure it , very odd

The forge doesn't have a diaphragm just a spring and an alluminium piston. as mentioned you can get different springs and shims. They used to list a full kit for about a tenner.

It doesn't explain why it does it with a standard valve though. Its as if you have too much vacum on the engine side when the throttle is closed compared to the levels on the intercooler side of the throttle.

Did u check all the intercooler pipes and connections and breathers.

We was going to do that yesterday but run out of time.

We did say the whole intercooler needs to be popped off and checked underneath as some of the larger pipes look like thay have been over tightened. pinching up somewhere?
The small vacum pipe that comes off the DV does look like hardend plastic and wiggles at the connection. i would personally replace it and i think mart will.

It doesnt have a rubber diaphram but it has to seal the vac line area with the piston.
Ie. work like a diaphram. If you compress the piston and place your finger over the vac connection the vacuum created should hole the piston in place. If it doesnt then air will be sucked through the vac pipe or escape through the dump valve depending if on boost or not.
And the piston will open when it shouldnt.